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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

[quote]I wasn't aware that 'real racism' was anything other than a mockery to begin with.

Moron. [/quote]

I was saying it makes a mockery of situations where people are actually affected by racism. People getting hurt by racism isn't a joke, Mikey, and saying that this movie hurts Jews somehow is ridiculous, and an affront to people who are actually affected by racism. If anyone is inspired towards racist acts because of it I repeat my assertion that that person was already a racist.

If you think that "maybe 'if so and so is true' and 'such and such can be concluded and under this circumstance this might happen' and therefore you could say maybe the movie is racist", and then the movie will force people -who have no will power or ability to make decisions on their own- towards an anti-semitic attitude you seem to be denying the responsibility of the audience members for their own attitudes. You're basically saying "you couldn't be blamed if you saw this movie and became anti-semitic". Otherwise why would you offer up a complaint.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

4-07-04 10:55am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

The Pharisees wouldn't care. See remarks by Gamaliel below. The Priest class (Sadducees) and their Roman masters would care, because declaring oneself king of a Roman subject realm is an act of sedition against Rome. The way Rome punished such acts-- and only such acts-- was crucifixion. Although the Pharisees left a copious literature behind, there is no contemporaneous record anywhere of Pharisees crucifying anyone or advocating the crucifixion of anyone. The Pharisees were nationalists, and crucifixion was abhorrent to them, as it stood for their subjugation by Rome. Also, as nationalists, they sympathized with Messianic movements, whose whole purpose was to kick Rome's ass out of Judaea.

I hope you're beginning to get the picture.

Then you can't read.

It's only antisemitic because it invents a conspiracy of Jewish leaders to torture and kill God Himself. It also exonerates the true killers and oppressors of Jews. That's pretty antisemitic.

I have acknowledged that Jesus argued with the Pharisees, as all Pharisees argued with Pharisees, and condemned the Sadducees, as all Pharisees (probably) condemned the Sadducees, and that this was their job, and there was nothing antisemitic about that. You cannot seem to get this through your skull.

The question that I think is thick-witted, which you continue to ask in myriad wondrous forms, is "What's so antisemitic about framing up the Pharisees for the death of Christ?" I thought that pointing to Christendom's long and heart-rending history of pogroms and genocide against the Jews might provide you some clues, but alas.

Gamaliel was the leading Hillelite Pharisee of the time. Such was his fame that the author of Acts puts these words in Paul's mouth: "I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God" (22:3). In other words, the claim to Paul's knowledge of Pharisaic law rested on his training "at the feet of Gamaliel."

And what did Gamaliel have to say about the followers of Jesus' Messianic movement? According to Acts:

5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

5:36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

5:40 And to him they agreed...

So according to Acts itself, the leading Pharisee, Gamaliel, who "had in reputation among all the people," advocated the position that we shouldn't mess with claimants to Messiahship, because if the claim is false, it will come to nothing, but if it is true, then you're messing with the Messiah and going against God. And his argument carried the day. This position is quite consistent with what we know of the Pharisees from their own writings, and the position we would infer from the fact that they were nationalists who wanted Rome out of Judaea.

Again, it is not the Pharisees, but the Priest class and their Roman masters, who had something to fear from Jesus.

Because the textual foundation of Christianity, including the Gospels, is the writings of Paul. You and Chi (and I suppose many others) have some rather non-current ideas about New Testament authorship, and I'm putting it charitably. More on that later.

So he identified parts that were arguably antisemitic? Admirable. And since he says it was all taken directly from the Gospels, he and I apparently agree that the Gospels are arguably antisemitic. Glad he made efforts to tone down those possibly-antisemitic parts.

Maybe your reading skills are deficient, or maybe you're high on shoe polish or something. I wrote that for all I know Mel loves Jews from the bottom of his heart, but his intentions do not enter into the question of whether the Gospels are antisemitic, and whether by repeating the story, he is repeating an antisemitic story-- intentionally or not. So, there, I wrote it again. I expect you'll soon be asking again why I think Mel Gibson intended an antisemitic message, and I'll have to repeat the same answer. Or you could just read what's in front of you.

More snappy answers to such questions are on the way.

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What others say about boorite!

4-07-04 2:03pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

[quote]Hold up for a second.

If it is true that the Gospels are anti-semitic, then the following holds:

(1) The basis of Christianity is what is written in the Gospels, since these are the account of Jesus Christ
(2) The Gospels are anti-semitic
(3) Any film which purports to tell the story of the Gospels is anti-semitic
(4) People who believe in the Gospels as the divinely inspired Word of God (a.k.a. Christians) are likewise anti-semites
[/quote]

3 and 4 don't follow. Let's leave aside 3.

I said the Gospels are (arguably) antisemitic. I even characterized them as antisemitic propaganda. If they are antisemitic, that does not mean everyone who says he's a Christian is an antisemite and hates Jews. Just because a work encodes certain meanings doesn't mean those meanings are received by all readers.

Let's say you're a Native American who loves to watch old Westerns-- and you root for the Indians. Does this mean those films are not chock-full of anti-Native, pro-European meanings, which are racist propaganda? No, it does not.

Hell, let's say you're a white guy who loves to watch old Westerns that are chock-full of racism. Let's say you even "believe" these films accurately reflect some historical reality. Does this make you a racist? I mean, does it make you spit on Indians and burn down their houses? No, it does not. You might not even be aware that the movies are racist.

As to "belief" in the Bible: How many Christians think we should kill witches and dash the brains out of our uppity kids and treat leprosy by ringing bells and so on? Close to none. So there's "belief" in a nutshell. I don't think many Christians are any too aware of what exactly the books of the Bible are saying, which, taken as a whole, is pretty incoherent anyway. So it's hard to say what they mean when they say they believe the Bible.

Lastly, my next door neighbor is a Christian and one of the absolute nicest people you'll ever meet. She'd never burn a Jew at the stake. That doesn't mean the Gospels aren't chock-full of anti-Jewish propaganda. Also, her husband likes old Westerns.

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What others say about boorite!

4-07-04 2:31pm (new)
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ivytheplant
Obsessive Comic Disorder

Member Rated:

A friend of mine who's an Orthodox Jew once said that the Jews really did kill Jesus and people should stop trying to be politically correct and just admit it.

I don't really care who killed him. It got the job done after all. Wasn't that the point anyway?

4-07-04 2:48pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

MakK sez:

[quote]He keeps refering to their authors as "followers of Paul", and I am assuming he does this to try to find a way to weasel in Paul's texts to the argument. Last time I check the authors of the Gospel were followers of Jesus.
[/quote]

Chi elaborates on this theory. The problem is, it's a theory that's never been taken seriously by any scholar of New Testament authorship that I've run across since I first looked into the topic 20 years ago. I mean virtually no scholar in this field attributes the Gospels to anyone who knew Jesus in his lifetime. It's like flat-earth theory. So I'm guessing neither of you have looked all that seriously at the issue. But you can look into it, with a trip to the library, which has like books and stuff.

Or you could just Google it for Heaven's sake.

What you'll find, in a nutshell, is that the Gospels (and not just the four canonical ones) circulated anonymously at first, and then were attributed to certain Apostles ... by Church fathers in the 2nd Century, between about 130 and 180 CE. Some say the attributions were guesses, and others characterize them as tributes. In any case, they are not thought to be written by acquaintances of the historical Jesus. They were written by converts to the new religion that Paul cobbled together from elements of paganism and Gnosticism-- Pauline Christians, some of whom very likely knew Paul personally. "Followers of Paul." Not followers of Jesus in any material sense.

"Weasel in Paul's texts?" Into a discussion of the Gospels? That phrase shows how much MakK knows about this topic. Paul's epistles (the ones he actually wrote, which are not all the ones attributed to him) were written before the Gospels. They were written by converts to the religion he invented, based on the theology and "history" embodied in his epistles. There is no weaseling. Paul is the foundation. His epistles came first. That's not a contentious issue. It's the kind of thing you can look up in an encyclopedia.

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What others say about boorite!

4-07-04 3:02pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

Gotta clarify an antecedent. I wrote:

[quote]Paul's epistles (the ones he actually wrote, which are not all the ones attributed to him) were written before the Gospels. [The Gospels] were written by converts to the religion he invented, based on the theology and "history" embodied in his epistles. There is no weaseling. Paul is the foundation. His epistles came first. That's not a contentious issue. It's the kind of thing you can look up in an encyclopedia.
[/quote]

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

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What others say about boorite!

4-07-04 3:12pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Boorite, all your blustering ignores the point that the story was in the context of Israel, so the story was about the Jewish people. Again I say, if it was set in China, the Chinese would have killed him. Your only defense seems to be your invented motivation for a "Jews killed Jesus" conspiracy. If you read the works you're criticising you'd see Jewish mobs, not Pharisees, calling for Jesus to be killed. They sold Jesus up the river because he was breaking THEIR laws, not Rome's.

I think it was Chi who had the point that if you talk about the State of Texas putting someone to death, it's not anti-Texan to say the Texans killed this person, it's not anti-American to say the Americans killed him, you'e just stating the facts.

And again, the point is he had to die, so the people killing him enabled him to finish his work. If you're so concerned about taking things in the context of the Gospel, God is the one who allows Jesus to die. Is the movie, based on the Gospels, therefore ANTI-GOD?? Oh gosh I think there's cause to say it is. What a pickle.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

4-07-04 4:57pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

Your "context" lacks a crucial feature: The Roman occupation of Judaea, without which the Messianic movements make no sense. I have indeed read the Bible, and find nothing in the Gospels to suggest that Jesus was some kind of religious rebel and breaker of Jewish law-- until John, that is, where we meet a very weird Jesus indeed. John, btw, was the last Gospel written, and the ideas it espoused were the least recognizable to Jews of the day.

And if you'd read the Bible, you'd surely see how the NT vilifies the Pharisees. You're correct, however, that it also vilifies "Jewish mobs" and the Jewish religion at large. This would be fine, much like your State of Texas scenario-- except it's false. Really, a better analogy would be: The State of Texas puts someone to death, and a story is invented to blame the Mexicans. The victim of this execution would have to be someone highly esteemed (like, ooohh, let's say.... GOD) and the frameup of the Mexicans would have to be full of vicious false Mexican stereotypes. And the story would have to be important enough that Texans and other Americans would be willing to take it out on the Mexicans for much of the next two millenia. Then you would have something decidedly anti-Mexican, wouldn't you? And something roughly analogous to the hatchet job that Paul and company did on the Jews.

And that stuff about Jesus having to die to finish his work here is pure paganism, going back to Paul's hometown of Tarsus, named for the mystery god Baal-Taraz and where Paul (named Saul) grew up surrounded by icons of the flayed and hung mystery god Attis. The concept of salvation in the sacrifice of a man-god would have felt like home to Paul but utterly alien to Jews, including Jesus.

Yeah. Not only that, God is Jesus, and vice-versa. I told you the damn story is crazy. It's also old as Babylon.

I think the Jewish version makes a bit more sense.

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What others say about boorite!

4-07-04 8:53pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

You're right. Your over-whelming evidence has convinced me. I now hate the Jews. Thank you for straightening me out.

I notice you didn't respond to the section where I ask exactly whose laws Jesus was executed for breaking. Maybe because it messes with your whole anti-semitic 2000 year old conspiracy.

If your argument is "the Gospels are anti-semitic and so is the movie" why do you keep going outside the Gospels to make your point? Is it because your whole argument hinges on Paul, whom you apparently thought wrote the gospels or something when you made your stroke-of-genius post? You've had to do a lot of work to cover up your mistake, by the way.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

4-07-04 10:40pm (new)
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choadwarrior
Crash Magnet

Member Rated:

Actors Whip Easter Bunny at Church Show

GLASSPORT, Pa. (AP) - A church trying to teach about the crucifixion of Jesus performed an Easter show with actors whipping the Easter bunny and breaking eggs, upsetting several parents and young children.

People who attended Saturday's performance at Glassport's memorial stadium quoted performers as saying, ``There is no Easter bunny,'' and described the show as being a demonstration of how Jesus was crucified.

Melissa Salzmann, who brought her 4-year-old son J.T., said the program was inappropriate for young children. ``He was crying and asking me why the bunny was being whipped,'' Salzmann said.

Patty Bickerton, the youth minister at Glassport Assembly of God, said the performance wasn't meant to be offensive. Bickerton portrayed the Easter rabbit and said she tried to act with a tone of irreverence.

``The program was for all ages, not just the kids. We wanted to convey that Easter is not just about the Easter bunny, it is about Jesus Christ,'' Bickerton said.

Performers broke eggs meant for an Easter egg hunt and also portrayed a drunken man and a self-mutilating woman, said Jennifer Norelli-Burke, another parent who saw the show in Glassport, a community about 10 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

``It was very disturbing,'' Norelli-Burke said. ``I could not believe what I saw. It wasn't anything I was expecting.''

Information from: The Daily News, http://www.dailynewsmckeesport.com

4-07-04 11:09pm (new)
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